Sucks it’s China doing this. Wish it were Dacia
*Stealers
Our national neighbors to the north have already caved
I don’t recall China threatening to annex, use military actions, damage the economy or using other means to destabilise the region, or be hosting towards Canada. That came from the big neighbour down the South. No wonder Canada is more open to other trade routes.
Seize the factories in Ontario and make a national daily driver EV!
Arm go Up. Line Go Down.
FAFO fascism is wack idiots
Greed, lack of standards and sub-standard vehicles finally caught up with them.
They’ve been so busy downsizing their workforce, they forgot how to make a car under $40k
Government bailout then?
At some point there’s going to be one too many bailouts and nobody will want to keep holding the bag that is USD.
Well. In Germany we say “Der Markt regelt das”. Translated: economy speaks for itself. <- Ironically spoken
Like it or Not. China made it. They will also flood Europe/EU soon. I’m not mad, when they can, they should. This is our beloved capitalism.
One German politician warned car companies that they need to make affordable EV. They didn’t listen and still don’t.
Edit: Added “<- Ironically spoken” to first sentence to make clear how I was meaning it.
There’s another word - mercantilism.
No, they shouldn’t, but it’ll be the same thing that US tech companies did, more or less.
I think the environment, in terms of IP and patents and running a company, should be made easier in the EU, otherwise there will be no domestic competition. Unfortunately those seem to only become stricter over time.
For China mercantilism works, because of enormous size of their own market, and pretty strong competition inside it with lax rules.
This is our beloved capitalism.
That’s sort of the joke. We are living in the IRL equivalent of people complaining Communism is OP in Victoria 3.
“What do you mean you’re leveraging a highly efficient network of state owned enterprises to obtain materials and utilities nearly at-cost?! That’s cheating!!!”
China has ten highly productive and innovative EV companies in a bloody knuckled price war because it’s state government makes starting and growing auto plants artificially cheap and easy.
That’s called mercantilism and not communism.
Personally I prefer Communism in Victoria 2 or Peasant republics in EU5. Let me flood the market with cheap cloth then shut it down and tank the entire worlds capacity to build units.
The funny thing is the “True” Americans think a capitalism free market is absolute peak. They say well if it was a TRUE capitalism free market it would be perfect. Its because of the state we have issues! No you idiot, its because of billionaires which capitalism by design creates.
They say this while using government to prevent import of superior vehicles, just like they did for Japan in the 90s (chicken tax anyone?)
Socialism for the rich. Rugged individual capitalism for the 99%.
They say this while using government to prevent import of superior vehicles, just like they did for Japan in the 90s (chicken tax anyone?)
In a thought experiment where they didn’t, the auto market would be healthier.
In another thought experiment where Japanese electronic and software industry didn’t become monopolized due to similar state involvement, it could have kept positions.
So yes, free market is good, except free market is a situation that can’t be created by free market alone. You can’t keep free market having only free market. It’s not a magic spell that makes any heap of stuff to suddenly reorganize into something working by itself. It’s a philosophy of protections, where competition should be maintained and all kinds of pressure and coercion should be minimized.
Those protections have to be made for free market to exist. And that’s the thing, they are very hard to make and require, quoting Harry Potter, constant vigilance.
This is amazing
One German politician warned car companies that they need to make affordable EV. They didn’t listen and still don’t.
Being an Asian having grown up in Europe, I can say that Westerners have a short term, profiteering mindset. We think too much if the earnings for the next quarter will keep the shareholders happy. There is no long term planning and vision. I find Western businesses afraid of leaving their initial core industry, even if that industry is going the way of the dodos like fossil fuel cars.
I can’t exactly assess Chinese industries much, but Japanese businesses are excellent and unafraid with diversifying away from their initial offerings, and reaching out to a completely separate field. Nintendo was a card manufacturing company but is now a videogame titan. Fujifilm went from photo and film to biotechnology. Sony just recently eked out to finance and investing. Western companies don’t really do this, but instead waste money by fighting tooth and nail to keep dying businesses alive. Western companies are obsessed with making money now, while East Asian companies prioritise existence.
We think too much if the earnings for the next quarter will keep the shareholders happy.
That We is pulling a lot of weight and i’d mostly translate it as C-suits and management.
Nintendo was a card manufacturing company but is now a videogame titan. Fujifilm went from photo and film to biotechnology. Sony just recently eked out to finance and investing
Hitachi makes consumer electronics and heavy industrial construction machinery.
But somehow Ford can only make F150s and Mustangs any more…
Mitsubishi is another heavy weight.
Ford Aerospace was a division of Ford in the 1950s-1970s that made missiles and satellites. Look at the backgrounds of the corporate leadership, the 4th generation Fords have most of the votes. The CEO’s background is in sales and marketing.
And they miss obvious things too. How did Sears, a company that became famous and hide by offering magazines to show the cost of their goods to everyone before that was a thing, lose to an online bookstore? How did a video rental place (Blockbuster) not see the obvious benefit of mailing DVDs and then later internet streaming and get beat by a no name company like netflix?
Probably exactly as you say. It would have cost a year or two of missed quarterly earnings as they entered new markets, so they missed the opportunities entirely.
Like most successful companies of the past, they were bought by a hedge fund or real estate fund and milked for any cash before assets were disposed. There are plenty more big name companies about to die because their business is no longer the product they made, it is only return for shareholder.
How did Sears
That one baffles me. They were doing catalog based mail order since the start of their business.
They should have been in the perfect position to compete with what Amazon has become. They already had all the infrastructure in place. All they needed was a decent website version of their existing catalog with a simple ordering method, and they utterly failed at that.
They had online ordering years before amazon was even a thought, but the high ups canned it saying that the internet was just a passing fad. They put themselfs out of business while saying they knew better then the customer the whole while.
Japanese businesses are excellent
The Zaibatsu model has different incentives, particularly when they’re jockeying for position with American internationals on their own turf.
They’re very good at undercutting American industry. But I’d consider the Japanese cartel model flawed in other ways - miserable places to actually work for, agonizingly patriarchal, debilitating drinking/drug culture, zero work life balance, and the pay is shit.
That is true. But I mean branching out is something that Western companies should not be afraid of. EV and renewables are no brainers; but legacy firms in the fossil fuel industries are spending millions to prevent change and would rather see the world burn.
Although, to several Western company’s credit, they do branch out. Many European energy utilities have mostly diversified away from fossil fuels. The centuries old state-backed Danish company, Orsted, completely got rid of their fossil fuel mix, and transitioned 100% to renewable. But Trump cancelling their projects in US East Coast ruined their short term profitability. In any case, Orsted is firm with their full transition to renewable energy.
EV and renewables are no brainers; but legacy firms in the fossil fuel industries are spending millions to prevent change and would rather see the world burn.
When you see reports come out from fossil fuel companies, they quite literally describe “$X trillion of hydrocarbons in the ground”.
Many European energy utilities have mostly diversified away from fossil fuels.
Europe only really has the Baltic as a reserve. They’ve been cut off from much of the Middle East by decades of war.
So, unlike the US, which has become an oil exporter for the last twenty years, Europeans either went woke or went broke.
Those fossil fuel companies are trying to invoke the greed in us, but for most people it’s not really working with respect to climate change. I won’t consider myself an optimist, bu the fact that renewable energy and EVs are growing says that people really do care.
In theory, the “invisible hand of free market” ought to pick out the most innovative and profitable companies, while those who refuse to keep up with the times vanish. But in practice, the legacy companies, despite their business model becoming obsolete, don’t want to go away quietly. They spend money to spread misinformation to put down cutting edge technologies and business models, despite growing market demand like green technology.
Even if fossil fuels still has some value, is it really worth it in the long run to extract them and cause mass extinction? Who will be the customers when society collapse? As someone asked before, “what if we improved society for nothing?”
It’s the result of their mythical beginnings. Creatures made out of mud, while you Asians are descendants of the dragon god. Or something. I dunno I am just a random person on the internet
Not a fan of this sentence. Market doesn’t care about human sensitivities, not one bit.
Which one exactly?
Der Markt regelt das. No it doesn’t. Not without enforced regulation.
Absolutely. I’m sorry. I did not make clear that I meant it ironically.
The problem is China subsidizing their cars to suffocate the European manufacturers. When all the European manufactures are closed or sold to China, you’ll see the real prices.
EDIT: Also, soon? They are already here.
The subsidies aren’t special at all compared to US and EU ones, and they’re apparently going to be phased out over the next 5 years. This supposed evil scheme just doesn’t seem to exist; the truth of the matter is that China just makes better and cheaper cars.
China just makes better and cheaper cars.
Why wouldn’t they?
After decades of being the west’s factory they’d be stupid not to learn.
And better is just upping the QA more than their western customers (who want the cheapest possible 'cos line must go up).
Yes. I’m aware that they subsidize the shit out of a lot of stuff. They saw the chance and took it. Of course, I’d like to see European cars, as that also means workplaces and plus for our economy.
For a greater time we already compete a lot with Japanese and Korean cars - I mean they build good cars. But in the end it seems more fair. And for what I know is that they also do very good options on the EV market - but will hardly compete with BYD or Xiaomi vehicles.
Yessssss
The dealership system is garbage. Let the battle begin.
Say what you will, but I’ll take BYD over Tesla any day.
My “fear” with the Tesla system is customer service after the sale. Usually a local dealer will have to consider repeat sale and after-market service and repair. Building a good customer relation is key to that. Alternative is am anonymous underpaid call center “drone” in another country or dead email drops that never gets answered. Or worse some kind of AI chat feature on a glossy professional web page.
My issue with all electric cars is the development rate and the risk of platforms not being supported for an extended time. How long will software be serviced? Right now I do not dare own an electric car older than five years as there are so many bugs due to rushed development
Local dealers dont give a fuck about repeat sales. They are a monopoly. Many own several dealerships in the region, so even going to the next town… congrats, you just bought from the same person.
And customer service? Lmfao. They just do the bare minimum. God fordbid you try to get a warranty fix. They’ll do everything to avoid fixing the problem.
and dealerships change hands every [x] years so they really don’t care about repeat sales. new name on the big sign at the auto mall every five years out here
The US has laws saying vehicle manufacturers have to produce parts to service the cars for x number of years, or something like that. We just put in some new law that covers EVs similarly.
Shitty dealerships thrive, what are you talking about? They don’t give a fuck about customer relationship, they just say that in their radio commercials.
Maybe American autodealers should’ve made cheaper cars and not relied on monopoly-like status and government protections manipulating the market.
Also, maybe American’s shouldn’t have been such cunts to their neighbours. I mean, they throw a big Trump diaper at Canada and Mexico, start demanding all the car companies shut down plants and shit, wtf did they expect Canada and Mexico to do exactly?
They can cry about it, I also don’t think it will upend socity as quick as they imagine
Good. No one should buy American trash.
its also overpriced, and the handles trying temulate tesla is a very big turnoff, as well as a safety issues.
I don’t disagree about our cars being overpriced, so fair point there.
I used to own a Tesla Model 3 (I got rid of it for reasons you can probably guess), though, and the one thing everyone - including me at the time - universally disliked was the handles, inside and out. For the outside half, there were several times I struggled to get in during cold weather. For the inside I never had a problem with them but I understand how they could be difficult (my wife printed stickers to make ours more clear).
I know the outside ones are supposedly more aerodynamic; neither are as bad as how some people represent them … But everyone hated them.
I suspect you were trying to troll, in which case I almost want to apologize for interfering but can’t bring myself to, but if you’re being earnest I feel I should offer some input.
The lack of purely mechanical interior handles in the back seat is the most egregious offense. Sure, technically they exist but 95% of Tesla owners probably aren’t aware.
For context, there are easily accessible (though sort-of hidden) handles in the front, but in the back they’re steel cables underneath the liner in the door pockets. Back seat passengers just burn in a fire I guess.
Good. Eat shit.
You guys had your chance. Instead you shoved giant fucking trucks and SUVs down our throats while telling us we didn’t want good, small, electric cars. I hope you all choke to death.
What you don’t want an EV hummer for 200k USD or whatever tf they charge for vehicles these days?
I… I was trying to disagree. But you’re making it damn difficult.
Maybe they can eat a dick.
No, don’t reward bad behavior. They can eat Trumps unwashed asshole.
As an American…
Say it louder for those in the back.
sadly, “too big to fail, lets bail em out on public $”
Good. It’ll just hasten the collapse.
China’s got an overcapacity of affordable cars people want, and the US will have an overcapacity of unaffordable cars nobody wants, and we can see which is the better problem to have.
Unfortunately, the US’s cars will become write-offs for the companies, the rich will suffer nothing, and they’ll become rusting landfill waste like Atari 2600 copies of ET.
Government subsidized is not the same thing as affordable. As soon as they are embedded, prices will go up.
Just look at Korean manufacturers in US. Some Hyundais/Kias are more expensive than Toyotas. They used to be a great cheap alternative.
Difference is Koreans actually build high quality cars and Chinese build quality is debatable.
I have to say though, the faster Tesla fucking burns, the better. Nazi trash can go fuck himself.
Difference is Koreans actually build high quality cars and Chinese build quality is debatable.
If the Kias I’ve driven are any indication… No they don’t.
You also do realize that the Chinese make good stuff too right? It’s not just the random brands you see on Temu and Amazon. It’s the same brands you recognize already. Every Apple device for the past 25+ years is Chinese. Every component, every step of manufacturing, every human touch along the way. They’re only designed in California.
China just has an excess of manufacturing capability, because they make everything for everyone. Hell, a lot of “counterfeit” and “knock-off” merchandise rolled off the same exact factory line as the name brand. The factories continue running manufacturing lines after hours to produce excess that gets sold on the grey market, and they also send the stuff that fails quality testing to the grey market.
Manufacturing engineer here, can confirm. China has successfully replicated the success Japan enjoyed a generation ago.
Americans don’t be jealous; more great centers of manufacturing is a win for everybody. This is why we can have nice things! If it still bothers you… git gud lol
They manufacture so much because it’s cheap to manufacture there and that comes at some costs like putting very little value on people and their labor.
Also, designed in California means more than you think for established brands that have to follow American or, usually stricter, California laws.
Labor cost is a part of course… But the bigger thing is that the entire manufacturing process from near-raw materials, through individual component manufacturing, and final product assembly are all located within just a few miles of each other. Things aren’t being shipped across the country multiple times through the process. When manufacturing transportation cost is essentially zero, there is a lot of inherent cost and time savings.
I think the bigger things are the nearly slave labor and the temporary government subsidies and the general manufacturing capability and the jobs.
That said, I sure would like cheap, ubiquitous electric vehicles.
They manufacture so much because it’s cheap to manufacture there and that comes at some costs like putting very little value on people and their labor.
Then we should have prioritized worker treatment in our trade deals. We naturally didn’t because we not only place no value on workers or their labor, but were also willing to forfeit the race to the bottom.
We don’t value THEIR workers or THEIR labor either. We value cheap products with many features. That was basically my point from the beginning.
China making bad quality stuff is an outdated stereotype. I hate to sound like I’m a China fanboy because I’m not, but it’s really undebatable; they’re the future now.
It isn’t. Of course established brands make quality stuff; their brand depends on it. It’s the US/Canada/Europe level of qa expectation and local laws that are driving the quality.
And cars are not only expensive as fuck, but also are an absolute necessity in most of US/Canada. I wouldn’t blame anyone for getting a fully loaded $30k brand new electric car over a similarly priced “budget” Kia. Might as well take advantage of the fact that China is subsidizing the other $20k.
There’s almost nothing that can break in an electric car over typical lease period, but I wouldn’t want to keep it past the warranty or get into a serious accident in it.
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BYDs are awesome. You’ll see.
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Also, with China being an evil horrible dictatorship, this definitely isn’t a moral upgrade either.
The U.S has no moral high ground to stand on here, especially under current leadership.
Our national neighbors to the north have already caved, setting off alarm bells in some U.S. operations, and now NADA is hoping to amplify that warning.
Fuck off you Yankee cunts. Go fuck yourself through both ears with a rusty chainsaw.
“Caved”!? You mean “are purchasing higher quality vehicles for lower prices” means “caving” these days?
Seriously. Fuck all the way off.
Apparently “capitalism” and “market pressure” only work when it’s in the USA’s favour? The USA should be proud of Canada for acting exactly like capitalists! They are opening the market and letting the best suited and best priced item win. Isn’t that the whole point of the system?
I’m trying, but my government keeps moving the goalposts on how far I need to fuck off. It’s beginning to get exhausting.
I’m afraid it will have to be a lot more fucking off……Until he’s impeached, convicted and removed from power and the entire administration prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned for their crimes. SCROTUS expanded DHS abolished, ICE disbanded. Billionaires wealth redistributed. Reparations made for slavery though a truth and reconciliation process. Trans, Black, brown people, immigrants and queer people reintegrated and welcomed loudly back into society. And the US stops funding Palestine genocide. THAT’s when you can stop fucking off. So, it will be awhile.
And the system fixed so all this can’t happen again.
Nope. Still wouldn’t trust them even if they did all this. We have seen how quick this happened. It could happen again. Why: The fact it’s being tolerated, and it’s unlikely change will occur. They will just try and reverse a bit. Greed killed America
It takes hundreds of years to grow a forest, and just one match to burn it down.
Exactly this here.
<refrain>The problem is not Trump. The problem has never been Trump. Trump is a symptom of the problem. The problem is a social rot that has been going on for all of my life (well over half a century). All y’all done fucked up your whole society and that problem will remain long after the current coterie is gone.</refrain>
I will never trust the USA again. Nor will anybody else who was alive to watch that country turn to open Nazis over the course of two elections. We now know what’s lurking within the USA, and how large it is, and how much power it has. We can’t unsee this. It will be generations before anybody but the stupid trusts Americans.
