It’s already started, for porn. The kids don’t have to prove their age, they don’t have proper ID. So EVERYONE ELSE has to prove THEIR ages, and if you can’t, you are assumed to be underage.
See how well that works for the Nazis? Now they get to identify EVERYBODY who is on the Internet with their legal IDs, and they will know exactly who posted that nasty meme of Trump.
Exactly. I don’t think it’s a surprise this all aligns with companies like palantir collecting people’s images into their database. I have a feeling on the backend these identities will all be used to track people online. Photos of faces and their identities is about to become a hot commodity.
Photos aren’t going to help them track people online, that’s to track people in real life. With a database of images, they can use facial recognition software to track people wherever they go. Right now, they only have legal access to mug shots, which is all they should have. But with a database of normal citizens, they can track ANYBODY, and they don’t have the right to do that.
Imagine if your employer, or a stalker, or some HOA bitch, or overzealous law enforcement, or a lawyer, or an insurance company, etc. wants to hire them to see what you are up to?
They’re going to tie people to their online activities as well as offline. If anyone shows up to a protest, they’ll be able to take photos and search for every account you are associated with. Think about the smear they could create with Alex if they had this fully operational now.
The age of your account won’t matter. It’s not about age, it’s about identifying everyone on the Internet, and connect to them to whatever they are posting. They will verify age with your driver’s license, or they will lock your account.
The way around it is with VPNs, but MAGAs are already complaining about them. They are about to lock down the Internet, and to access it, you will have to let them read everything you write.
When I was a kid I wouldn’t dream of wearing a stackhat riding my bike. Then the laws came in, everyone did and it was fine. Same as seatbelts.
This is even more so because of the network effects.
Don’t get me wrong - the Australian laws are a very blunt instrument & I hate the idea of having to identify myself to the government. Fortunately it hasn’t happened to me - yet.
Can’t say the law for kids to wear helmets on bikes has done much to get them to do so. Though I don’t think bike helmet laws did much to rob the population of their privacy either.
One lawmaker proposed a law that would make it illegal to allow your children to see “drag” so none of this has to deal with parents doing their jobs and everything to deal with giving Nazis control over what other people are allowed to see
Not having it be regulated makes it a lot harder for parents to do their job, because the kids with responsible parents are getting peer-pressured by the kids with irresponsible parents.
Or put another way: you’re not making parents do their jobs; you’re making their jobs impossible by forcing them to choose between ruining their kid’s mental health by letting her be exposed to social media, or ruin her mental health by forcing her to be ostracised for not using social media.
The only way to have a successful outcome is to force everyone else’s kids not to use it, not just your own, and no amount of rugged individualist good parenting can accomplish that by itself!
That said, I am extremely sympathetic to the arguments against age verification laws too, which is why my preferred solution would be to fucking outlaw and destroy corporate social media entirely, for kids and adults alike!
Oh god, they’ll get some access? Like, I can’t completely control my children and they are individuals who have the right to start making choices? Jesus Christ, I’m not going to be able to exert my will over them indefinitely?
If your child is old enough to leave the house and sneak around on you they were going to do that. You should be teaching them to live in society, not just avoiding it and dumping them into an environment without the skills to process the reality of life.
You are exactly right. We’re all in this ugly, trapped situation, together, like it or not.
As a parent, do you remove the obviously ruinous toxins from the kiddo’s environment, entirely? Seems like the only sensible choice.
But then again…for the kid, few things could feel worse. An entire childhood spent alienated from their peers? Permanently out of the loop, to where that becomes the personality trait noticed and remembered by others?
What a horrible bargain, I completely hate it.
“Well, a little hideous poison for you, routinely, I guess, dear. I wouldn’t want you to end up weird, after all…”
Durable societies are unfortunately bound to have such inconveniences for some in exchange for the betterment of many.
Tech companies have released the equivalent of digital opium so they and the government are accountable.
When we look back at the opioid epidemic of the 90s we don’t blame the addicts or their families (well I suppose we did at one point, without the benefit of hindsight or a bigger picture view), we blame the Sacklers, pharmaceutical companies, doctors that took kickbacks etc.
I’d hate for us to make the same mistake just because the drug is delivered in a way we don’t completely understand yet.
It’s also not as simple as asking parents to simply be better at parenting, whatever that may mean. The drug is already out on the street, widely available, and ridiculously addictive. Keeping your child from it is not only depriving them of a dopamine hit that their brains are not developed enough to simply ignore (even most adults are addicted) and it is in many cases relegating them to social ostracization.
This is far beyond what one parent or group of parents can fix. It requires a societal level change which generally needs to come from the government, whether we like it or not.
I’d be happy to hear out possible solutions and, as a parent, share what is viable and what isn’t. It would be nice to hear from other parents also.
Some important context on this user before anyone else gets dragged into a discussion: check their post history, multiple to a “Youth Liberation” community.
No shade meant by calling it out, but I think that makes it much more clear how strong your opinions are on this. There’s nothing to be gained in trying to talk to you about this when your opinions are set so strongly. You aren’t going to see the dangers that the rest of us see because your focus is on allowing freedom from oppresive parental figures.
You can’t seriously be saying that in the comments of a post linking to leaked internal documents showing that one of these companies is aware of the dangers they pose and damage they are doing. Did nazis falsify internal documents and this leak?
Did you somehow miss the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook, where they manipulated the emotional content of users’ feeds and gathered scientifically significant measurable responses in the emotions of the manipulated users?
Have you missed where each of these companies has had many public job postings for positions requiring applicants have psychology degrees?
People like to think of 4chan as the website that drove people to suicide, but every single one of the major social media sites has a fucking body count at this point, and almost every one is in the double digits.
Beyond all that, lemmy’s userbase trends older. I saw the tail end of the satanic panic into the moral grandstanding about the dangers of violent video games. I’d wager most of the users here lived through it.
I know firsthand what a moral panic looks like. They didn’t have the amount of research papers (that hold up to peer review) and leaked internal documents we can point at. They didn’t have body counts even remotely similar.
Keep on fighting for opressed teens to have more ways to get away from opressive parents. To have access to factual information that their parents don’t want them to have. It’s a good cause with not many people fighting for it.
That doesn’t mean though that anything you think challenges or opposes it is a nazi plot.
Teens are resilient and have astounding amounts of time on their hands. They’ll find a way to communicate, ways to make their own underground social platforms if they need to. The cat’s out of the bag. It’s the fucking internet. Corpos, government boots, no one can truly stop the signal. They couldn’t back in the days of dial up BBS. Good fucking luck now that you can get a device orders of magnitude more powerful for $50.
Don’t bother replying for my sake. I’m blocking you so I don’t get increasingly shitty towards you. Your mind’s made up on this, and so is mine. No point going back and forth if we’re just going to get more frustrated and exasperated at each other. Best of luck in your endeavours.
That’s the point, it doesn’t. Much like the argument about targeting marginalized people when you’re talking about children.
Edit: Yes, there are plenty of children and teens without access to information and the support structures they should have IRL. I was one of them and it’s fucking awful. The internet can help with that by offering exposure to different ideologies, evidence that you aren’t alone in what you’re feeling or going through.
But I don’t look back on everything I did and encountered online in mid 00s - early 10s era internet and go “that was overwhelmingly a great thing that I should have had the sort of unrestricted access to that I did”. And the internet has been even more corporatized and “skinner-boxed” since.
And with the benefit of hindsight, I can see a bunch of other ways that I could have gotten the good I got from the internet without all the bad, and through things in real life that I had dismissed in my youth.
we owe today’s teens a better internet experience. we should focus on building something that would have been ideal for us to have had when we were their age
It’s not as bad as drugs. Don’t give your kids phones. Be a parent. Don’t need to upload all our data and Id to palantir databases for tracking under the same old “protect the children” bullshit
best thing on that front is same fix for most of the working classes problems…
-more pay
-shift to 6hr/4d work week
-actually invest in education
most people are good, amd would probably love to spend more time with their family, but in the US especially they’re overworked and underpaid, one accident away destitution
And evidence shows that it made mental health worse, because of course it did. But at least they aren’t protesting the Gaza genocide so mission acomplished
I’m deeply skeptical of anyone slinging around drug metaphors l. Can you considered that isolating marginalized people is bad for them? Or do you not care? Or do you like it better that way?
I’m looking forward to the day when social media is heavily regulated and age-gated.
Age gated? You’d submit your driver’s license or identity to these sites?
It’s already started, for porn. The kids don’t have to prove their age, they don’t have proper ID. So EVERYONE ELSE has to prove THEIR ages, and if you can’t, you are assumed to be underage.
See how well that works for the Nazis? Now they get to identify EVERYBODY who is on the Internet with their legal IDs, and they will know exactly who posted that nasty meme of Trump.
But it’s okay, because it protects the children.
Exactly. I don’t think it’s a surprise this all aligns with companies like palantir collecting people’s images into their database. I have a feeling on the backend these identities will all be used to track people online. Photos of faces and their identities is about to become a hot commodity.
Photos aren’t going to help them track people online, that’s to track people in real life. With a database of images, they can use facial recognition software to track people wherever they go. Right now, they only have legal access to mug shots, which is all they should have. But with a database of normal citizens, they can track ANYBODY, and they don’t have the right to do that.
Imagine if your employer, or a stalker, or some HOA bitch, or overzealous law enforcement, or a lawyer, or an insurance company, etc. wants to hire them to see what you are up to?
I don’t see how what we’re saying is different?
They’re going to tie people to their online activities as well as offline. If anyone shows up to a protest, they’ll be able to take photos and search for every account you are associated with. Think about the smear they could create with Alex if they had this fully operational now.
Australia’s Social Media Ban is a Win for Gambling Companies
Probably not. But I don’t use most of them and the ones I do use my account should be old enough that I don’t have to.
The age of your account won’t matter. It’s not about age, it’s about identifying everyone on the Internet, and connect to them to whatever they are posting. They will verify age with your driver’s license, or they will lock your account.
The way around it is with VPNs, but MAGAs are already complaining about them. They are about to lock down the Internet, and to access it, you will have to let them read everything you write.
I’m looking forward to the police kicking in my door and typing my keys for me. jfc.
Yeah, and that’s how you get shitty age verification laws.
It’s a double edged sword
Bummer that they’re necessary, but they are.
They are not. It’s not the governments job to parent the nations children, (and conveniently erode our privacy in the process)
When I was a kid I wouldn’t dream of wearing a stackhat riding my bike. Then the laws came in, everyone did and it was fine. Same as seatbelts.
This is even more so because of the network effects.
Don’t get me wrong - the Australian laws are a very blunt instrument & I hate the idea of having to identify myself to the government. Fortunately it hasn’t happened to me - yet.
Can’t say the law for kids to wear helmets on bikes has done much to get them to do so. Though I don’t think bike helmet laws did much to rob the population of their privacy either.
How is this argument different from “it’s not the governments job to provide healthcare / education / social services”
Providing healthcare and social services is not inherently about controlling how people think and what information they have access to.
Yeah bummer that big daddy fascist leader is necessary, but they are.
Or parents can do their job. We have to suffer with age verification bullshit laws that’s just there to have us all in a database.
One lawmaker proposed a law that would make it illegal to allow your children to see “drag” so none of this has to deal with parents doing their jobs and everything to deal with giving Nazis control over what other people are allowed to see
Not having it be regulated makes it a lot harder for parents to do their job, because the kids with responsible parents are getting peer-pressured by the kids with irresponsible parents.
Or put another way: you’re not making parents do their jobs; you’re making their jobs impossible by forcing them to choose between ruining their kid’s mental health by letting her be exposed to social media, or ruin her mental health by forcing her to be ostracised for not using social media.
The only way to have a successful outcome is to force everyone else’s kids not to use it, not just your own, and no amount of rugged individualist good parenting can accomplish that by itself!
That said, I am extremely sympathetic to the arguments against age verification laws too, which is why my preferred solution would be to fucking outlaw and destroy corporate social media entirely, for kids and adults alike!
Or like, use the ample parental controls to limit their time to a reasonable amount 🤷♂️.
the parent can only do that on devices they own. they can’t do that on classmates devices
Oh god, they’ll get some access? Like, I can’t completely control my children and they are individuals who have the right to start making choices? Jesus Christ, I’m not going to be able to exert my will over them indefinitely?
If your child is old enough to leave the house and sneak around on you they were going to do that. You should be teaching them to live in society, not just avoiding it and dumping them into an environment without the skills to process the reality of life.
Exerting will over them infinitely is literally the objective here
You are exactly right. We’re all in this ugly, trapped situation, together, like it or not.
As a parent, do you remove the obviously ruinous toxins from the kiddo’s environment, entirely? Seems like the only sensible choice.
But then again…for the kid, few things could feel worse. An entire childhood spent alienated from their peers? Permanently out of the loop, to where that becomes the personality trait noticed and remembered by others?
What a horrible bargain, I completely hate it.
“Well, a little hideous poison for you, routinely, I guess, dear. I wouldn’t want you to end up weird, after all…”
Durable societies are unfortunately bound to have such inconveniences for some in exchange for the betterment of many.
Tech companies have released the equivalent of digital opium so they and the government are accountable.
When we look back at the opioid epidemic of the 90s we don’t blame the addicts or their families (well I suppose we did at one point, without the benefit of hindsight or a bigger picture view), we blame the Sacklers, pharmaceutical companies, doctors that took kickbacks etc.
I’d hate for us to make the same mistake just because the drug is delivered in a way we don’t completely understand yet.
It’s also not as simple as asking parents to simply be better at parenting, whatever that may mean. The drug is already out on the street, widely available, and ridiculously addictive. Keeping your child from it is not only depriving them of a dopamine hit that their brains are not developed enough to simply ignore (even most adults are addicted) and it is in many cases relegating them to social ostracization.
This is far beyond what one parent or group of parents can fix. It requires a societal level change which generally needs to come from the government, whether we like it or not.
I’d be happy to hear out possible solutions and, as a parent, share what is viable and what isn’t. It would be nice to hear from other parents also.
This rhetoric is very dangerous. It’s fueling censorship specifically targeting marginalized people
Some important context on this user before anyone else gets dragged into a discussion: check their post history, multiple to a “Youth Liberation” community.
No shade meant by calling it out, but I think that makes it much more clear how strong your opinions are on this. There’s nothing to be gained in trying to talk to you about this when your opinions are set so strongly. You aren’t going to see the dangers that the rest of us see because your focus is on allowing freedom from oppresive parental figures.
Edit: they also “won’t give an inch on this”
“The dangers” are a moral Panic that’s been kicked off by Nazis
You can’t seriously be saying that in the comments of a post linking to leaked internal documents showing that one of these companies is aware of the dangers they pose and damage they are doing. Did nazis falsify internal documents and this leak?
Did you somehow miss the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook, where they manipulated the emotional content of users’ feeds and gathered scientifically significant measurable responses in the emotions of the manipulated users?
Have you missed where each of these companies has had many public job postings for positions requiring applicants have psychology degrees?
People like to think of 4chan as the website that drove people to suicide, but every single one of the major social media sites has a fucking body count at this point, and almost every one is in the double digits.
Beyond all that, lemmy’s userbase trends older. I saw the tail end of the satanic panic into the moral grandstanding about the dangers of violent video games. I’d wager most of the users here lived through it.
I know firsthand what a moral panic looks like. They didn’t have the amount of research papers (that hold up to peer review) and leaked internal documents we can point at. They didn’t have body counts even remotely similar.
Keep on fighting for opressed teens to have more ways to get away from opressive parents. To have access to factual information that their parents don’t want them to have. It’s a good cause with not many people fighting for it.
That doesn’t mean though that anything you think challenges or opposes it is a nazi plot.
Teens are resilient and have astounding amounts of time on their hands. They’ll find a way to communicate, ways to make their own underground social platforms if they need to. The cat’s out of the bag. It’s the fucking internet. Corpos, government boots, no one can truly stop the signal. They couldn’t back in the days of dial up BBS. Good fucking luck now that you can get a device orders of magnitude more powerful for $50.
Don’t bother replying for my sake. I’m blocking you so I don’t get increasingly shitty towards you. Your mind’s made up on this, and so is mine. No point going back and forth if we’re just going to get more frustrated and exasperated at each other. Best of luck in your endeavours.
Sure, legalize smoking for 12 year olds so parents can regulate it themselves. Imbecilic reasoning.
How does that even logic?
That’s the point, it doesn’t. Much like the argument about targeting marginalized people when you’re talking about children.
Edit: Yes, there are plenty of children and teens without access to information and the support structures they should have IRL. I was one of them and it’s fucking awful. The internet can help with that by offering exposure to different ideologies, evidence that you aren’t alone in what you’re feeling or going through.
But I don’t look back on everything I did and encountered online in mid 00s - early 10s era internet and go “that was overwhelmingly a great thing that I should have had the sort of unrestricted access to that I did”. And the internet has been even more corporatized and “skinner-boxed” since.
And with the benefit of hindsight, I can see a bunch of other ways that I could have gotten the good I got from the internet without all the bad, and through things in real life that I had dismissed in my youth.
we owe today’s teens a better internet experience. we should focus on building something that would have been ideal for us to have had when we were their age
I hate these people. I’m at a loss for words
You’re confused by the assertion that access to social media is at least as bad for children as some banned drugs? Is this your first day on earth?
It’s not as bad as drugs. Don’t give your kids phones. Be a parent. Don’t need to upload all our data and Id to palantir databases for tracking under the same old “protect the children” bullshit
Most parents won’t. People are people. Those that would want to have to ballance the risk of excluding their children from the collective.
Oh won’t someone think of the parents though?! How can they be expected to parent their own children, oh the humanity
best thing on that front is same fix for most of the working classes problems…
-more pay
-shift to 6hr/4d work week
-actually invest in education
most people are good, amd would probably love to spend more time with their family, but in the US especially they’re overworked and underpaid, one accident away destitution
already starting to happen. Australia, for example implemented a under 16 ban on social media.
And evidence shows that it made mental health worse, because of course it did. But at least they aren’t protesting the Gaza genocide so mission acomplished
Cutting addicts off from their drug of choice has short term affects of immediately deteriorating mental health. More at 11.
I’m deeply skeptical of anyone slinging around drug metaphors l. Can you considered that isolating marginalized people is bad for them? Or do you not care? Or do you like it better that way?